I'm proud of miriku-chan.

Shog...those six arms give you marvelous balance for fence-sitting...;)

Some of us don't need a history lesson.
What some of us DO need is 'moderation' of their use of authority.

[I thought you might enjoy my choice of word]....;)

Keyboard not found.
Press F1 to continue.

I'm too lazy to read all that Shoggot, but I do support Miriku. I'm sure the admins don't want people making money off of their site unless it is them. I don't think customize.org is really making that much money honestly. A site that is free to the public and is dependant on banner ads can't make gobs and gobs of money. I think advertising and selling your skins via custo is a crime. If you are gonna profit from someone elses web site, you should atleast give them a cut.

I also don't believe that what was being sold here is making a large profit either. In a conversation I had with miriku early this afternoon we both thought a skin better give sing and dance or give blow jobs if we're gonna pay for it.

.:Arznek:.
with a bannana peal, a microwave, jergens, and a box of tissues...you can have a good time.

if i had any means to cue a giant wall of strings and thunderous timany under that post, i would.

shog, thank you.

geeezz... it's getting down to a battle for morality. Great post Shog, you got a lot of information and idealism in there. I too support open-source, freeware and street art with a passion but I also use shareware apps (which I gladly register) and commercial programs which cost a fortune. They all co-exist out of need or necessity.

The thing I can't stand about commercialism is when it tries to co-opt real art or real causes. It steals ideas, images and expressions - mimics a copy of them for money and always destroys the 'real' expression in the process. Make a phony treetog skin we can sell... that's where it becomes evil. The concept you can knock-off somebody's creativity to cash in on the success someone else has earned. The result is always some pop drivel that gets sucked up by the masses so they can feel cool without having the pressure of original thought. And the original idea becomes tarnished and cheap in the process (if it's remembered at all).

Idealism is a definite quality of character and not one that should be used to promote one's self image. The argument that skinners should never ask for money but software developers can is patently stupid. Idealism is what made me stand up against overwhelming police and military forces to make my voice a part of the civil rights, freedom of speech and anti-war movements. It almost cost me my life. I understand that an idealist will always act according to his values. I was one of the first artists to sit down in front of Cody's Bookstore in Berkely and 'sell' my art to the public. At the time, that was considered a crime and a revolutionary act. It later became glorified as an 'alternative lifestyle' and then eventually became a business with kids making big bucks selling stuff that was a lot like a copy of the stuff we had created. Sound familiar? Pixtudio is like me and the ooga-booga-bead-band selling our art on the street. We got flamed, we got chased away by the cops, but we were the originals and we made it work. I see treetog, Alex and Nuvem as being the first artists to throw out their blanket on the street and sell their wares to the public. If you don't want to buy them, just walk on by... you still get all the work they do for free and the benefit of their participation in this community. As far as it polluting the purity of skinning, that won't happen from the efforts of Pixtudio, that will happen from the repression of a good idea, or the mimicing of the idea by less accomplished and less principaled imitators.

The abuses of marketing and monopolies that limit the availability of real advances and limit the distribution of beneficial technologies is where the crime is.

All the new hardware and software content protection technologies and the phony corporate imitations of generosity and freedom are sucking this planet dry of human values. If you have the time read this article; http://www.lightstreamdesign.com/rant.html It strikes me as bizzarre that people don't see the value of sharing access to information and culture. Anyone here that runs WindowsXP is supporting the worst kind of corporate repression for commercial gain that's ever hit the software industry. Using a warez version of it is even worse than buying it. Come to think of it, using a warez copy of photoshop to create your "free" skins is pretty hypocritical too. The world doesn't need morality police, it needs moral people.

maybe i'll read all this one day... for now ... blargh

lol i agree with Cype

nice posts, especially shoggot.

That actually made me feel pretty good and proud aoubt edgar, easy e, eddie, miriku, miriku chan whatever.

...

..

AdamTT
ADMIN - EAST EUROPEAN MODERATION DEPARTEMENT
Its Miriku's fault, not mine

Hmm, what's there to add? Interesting posts both Shog and Dave.

Oh wait, now I know. I have this deep distrust of marketing and marketing tactics ever since I took some classes on it. The stuff just lacks ethics. But the step from PixStudio to that is one I wish not take. So I find all this a bit overreacting.

"The thing I can't stand about commercialism is when it tries to co-opt real art or real causes. "

"I was one of the first artists to sit down in front of Cody's Bookstore in Berkely and 'sell' my art to the public. "

So please explain to me how you selling your hippie art is "real" and therefore OK while Britney Spears or Snoop Dogg selling cd's is just the immoral co-opting of "real" art? Your inability to see the causal relationship here astonishes me. If you contend that your hippie, civil rights, free love art was "real" but was co-opted by others and turned into a commercial industry, don't you think you have some responsibility in this process insofar as you gave the industries something to co-opt?

"As far as it polluting the purity of skinning, that won't happen from the efforts of Pixtudio, that will happen from the repression of a good idea, or the mimicing of the idea by less accomplished and less principaled imitators."

You think Pixtudio can just wash its hands of the potential commercialization of skinning because it will be other people who will turn their "real" art into "fake" art? This is the essence of immorality, or even amorality really. If you know (or even merely believe) that doing A will lead to B, and B is immoral, then so is A. Moral responsibility is recognizing how your actions will affect the community as the whole, so to the extent that you recognize that pixtudio's work will lead to commercialization because of a few "bad apples," then they have a moral obligation not to do what will lead to that.

great example: Frank Zappa writes a bunch of music that comes straight outta his brain, he and some friends play it at some clubs, they call themselves "the mothers of invention" and a record company contacts them... They want to cut a deal, but the restrictions are too absurd so Frank starts his own record company, and cuts his own record. The record company thinks it will be a hit so they 'invent' a couple knock-off bands of their own who get played all over LA while Frank can't get his stuff on the air... In this case there was a happy ending, Frank Zappa's genius was far too unaccessible for a mainstream putz record exec to understand. All the knock-off bands fail horribly and Frank Zappa goes down in history as one the great American musical geniuses. It's rare that it goes in the favor of the artist.

I don't really want to get into criticizing the meaninglessness of pop culture or the shallowness of celebrity worship over content or talent. I think it's something you have to observe on your own, a decision you have to make yourself.

Your other argument is totally absurd. It's like saying owning a car leads to car theft and car theft is therefore the fault of the car owners...

When I first sold my art on the street it was considered a crime to do so. When it became immensly popular I had already moved on to other things. It is funny though, once for nostalgia's sake I went to one of the spots I used to sell at and everyone there was being weird and unfriendly to me. Finally a guy came over and talked to me and I found out some other guy had knocked-off my work (and even copied my logo). The other artists thought I must be ripping him off until they recognized my work and some of the older ones verified I was the original. It was hysterical to me. I really didn't care but it was gratifying that the other artists were concerned about this guy ripping my work. (he didn't even come close although it was obviously an attempt to copy me)

Good grief Shog. There's no bias at WinCustomize. Any registered user is free to post news. It's hardly our fault that freeware authors don't take the time to submit a news item.

WinCustomize has a Stardock bias, but not an anti-freeware bias. Where are the most LItestep themes downloaded from, Shog? Where are the most ICQPlus themes downloaded from? Where are the most Coolplayer themes downloaded from? Etc. All freeware, all popular, and WinCustomize doesn't just have them, it's the most popular place to get skins for that freeware. Sure, you talk the big talk but when it comes to actually aiding freeware authors in deeds, we deliver, you don't.

It was *I* that got that Wired Magazine article last year which featured freeware. And who wrote the skin primer that mostly contains non-Stardock apps? What have you writtenly lately or done lately to "promote" freeware? You've had instant-news posting access on WinCustomize since day 1. Where are your news posts for freeware? WinCustomize gets over 700,000 unique visitors. You could have done a lot of good by posting news items. Instead, you complain that OTHERS haven't done what you yourself haven't been willing to do.

And Apparently it's okay with Shoggot to "recoup" costs but coders are supposed to lose their shirts. Skin authors are supposed to be slaves to skin sites in Shog's world I guess. It's okay to exploit skin authors and developers and make money on it but the minute THEY try to do make some money, you start entertaining conspiracy theories (did you not call Stardock "evil" in another thread? Evil for doing what? Because we charge for enhanced versions of our software? When was the last time you even used some of our software?

To me, it just sounds like a case of sour grapes. The double standards SHOULD be obvious to any rational person. If it's okay for a skin site to recoup costs, it shoudl be okay for any other contributor to recoup their costs.

The logic that it is somehow better to work 8 hours a day making say insurance company databases/spend precious free time making a handful of skins than to dedicate all your time to making skins, software, and sites is beyond me. Particular coming from a former eFRONT employee who is an admin of a site with a PAY subscription program and ads up the wazoo on it which makes its money off the backs of skin authors.

That doesn't bother me. What does bother me is this lame attitude that skin sites are free to make all the money they can but the other 2 partners in a skin site - the skin authors and the software developers are not entitled to do the same. It's hypocritical beyond belief.

why do you make skins?

just to go a little offtopic.
this is something miriku would like http://www.customize.org/details/10076

AdamTT
ADMIN - Its Miriku's fault, not mine

Bah. I'm going to respond twice - once to this, once at wincusto to some comments you made there, then I'm done. So, point by point.

"There's no bias at WinCustomize."
Reference the line which starts "WinCustomize has a Stardock ..." below. 'nuff said.

"Any registered user is free to post news. It's hardly our fault that freeware authors don't take the time to submit a news item."
Why would they bother on a site which won't host skins for their work? Interested users obviously won't be looking for news about their apps there, will they? They'll look for it on a site which has skins for 'em - or stands a chance of creating a section for 'em, if the app is new.

"WinCustomize has a Stardock bias, but not an anti-freeware bias."
So that's why VDE is still a free download, right? Oh wait, it -was- freeware, then you melded it into OD as desktopX, and had the freeware version removed. 'Embrace & Extend'?

"Where are the most LItestep themes downloaded from, Shog?"
According to your stats, from you. You've already stated that you include the "big" apps - I assume as a draw for your own stardock apps.

"Where are the most ICQPlus themes downloaded from? Where are the most Coolplayer themes downloaded from? Etc."
Same answer as above.

"All freeware, all popular, and WinCustomize doesn't just have them, it's the most popular place to get skins for that freeware."
The ones you listed were freeware, yes. You have 11 non-stardock apps on the site, a number close to equaled by stardock apps. You chose the 'biggest' freeware (and shareware) non-stardock apps for inclusion. That doesn't strike me as altruism, it strikes me as riding coattails, or better expressed as getting collateral business.

"Sure, you talk the big talk but when it comes to actually aiding freeware authors in deeds, we deliver, you don't."
If aiding freeware authors means hiring them when their app gets popular and does something better than your own software so you can take the free version of their software offline and release it as your own shareware, then yes, you're aiding. Your jab at me, hrm, I'm frankly puzzled at where it comes from. You expressed downright glee at l0c & co shutting their software doors (thankfully, re-opened - they produce freeware). For me, personally, fine, I'll throw down: Illumination, the XX series, a lot of the glabouni software, various shells, many of the applaunchers - I've been a (I hope useful, bug-reporting) beta tester for 'em all, in some cases software has been crafted to my request, creating a skinnable where none existed before, and I've posted news on 'em all. The list at skinz grew -huge- with freeware. Yes, right now, there's only 50 sections - sections are added as skins get uploaded, note that no section has zero skins? you can see the full list, which is addded to upon request, by going to upload...
Hell, for that matter, care to tell me why & how the free-form animated ability for WB got added? Refresh our memory? Bah.

"It was *I* that got that Wired Magazine article last year which featured freeware."
And windowblinds, and stardock. So a marketdroid mentioned some other, non-competeing apps. Gawrsh.

"And who wrote the skin primer that mostly contains non-Stardock apps?"
As seen form a stardock point of view. When I need a revisionist history lesson, I'll go to moscow. Wait, they don't do that anymore - oki, I'll go to the american history books. Smallpox indian blankets, anyone?

"What have you writtenly lately or done lately to "promote" freeware?"
I add apps to the list at skinz. I promote the GIMP over (likely warezed) photoshop. I promote PoVRAY. Hell, I'd hype illumination to the point of turning blue in the face if it worked in w2k, which sadly, it doesn't. I answer newbie questions in #skinnerz (something the sd kids don't seem to have time for, too busy being proffessional to be a part of a real community aside from the SD support group / mutual group grope, I guess). Hell, I'm even considering being part of a new skin site devoted to nothing but freeware, w/ a focus on oss... at the very least, I'll hype 'em up in news. And not least, I rail against the new Micro$oft - $tardock. I see that as being an important part of giving freeware a chance at life in the skinning world - seeing $tardock die. Or at the very least, abandon it's 'embrace & extend' philosophy.

"You've had instant-news posting access on WinCustomize since day 1."
Uh - I was a -regular user- from day one at wincusto.

"Where are your news posts for freeware?"
See the previous point, and the second point made above.

"WinCustomize gets over 700,000 unique visitors. You could have done a lot of good by posting news items. Instead, you complain that OTHERS haven't done what you yourself haven't been willing to do."
I'm willing to do it at skinz, where I have posting ability. And I'm not complaining that you don't post freeware news - it'd be pointless since for the most part, you don't host the apps involved. I'm complaining about your very existence.

"And Apparently it's okay with Shoggot to "recoup" costs but coders are supposed to lose their shirts."
I said this when? If I use shareware, I pay for shareware - allways have. I recommend the same course of action to others. I'll link shareware in a heartbeat. I really have no idea where that came from, brad.

"Skin authors are supposed to be slaves to skin sites in Shog's world I guess."
And you guessed wrong, as usual. They're supposed to do whatever they feel like doing. Being skinners, I assume that's skinning. And they have the option to post their work wherever they like, or not at all, at their whim. None of us has a gun pointed at a skinner's head, here.

"It's okay to exploit skin authors and developers and make money on it"
Just like it's oki to exploit the users, eh brad? Nope. Again, no gun to a skinner's head - how am I exploiting 'em? Last I checked, pixtudio's skins, complete with ads, were still up at skinz. How am I exploiting the devs? Is promoting their work and adding sections on request (as opposed to having an internal vote on what gets added, at a limit of one new app a month) exploitation? News to me..

(con't)"but the minute THEY try to do make some money, you start entertaining conspiracy theories"
Again, their work is still up. With ads. They also have the power to take down their own work, if you pressure them to do so. The 'conspiracy' theory (roughly: that $tardock, in return for hyping their work, will start to make demands on what apps they skin, and what they can't) has some grounding in reality, as shown in the next point...

"(did you not call Stardock "evil" in another thread? Evil for doing what? Because we charge for enhanced versions of our software? When was the last time you even used some of our software?"
Last point first: thankfully long ago. I've found good freeware equivalents for all of your apps, thank you.
The rest: yep, I called $D evil - and I meant it. You've been acting in a very micro$oft-ish fashion - re-writing history, claiming ownership of the community (go see brad's thread at wincusto, he says it in plain text, no reading between lines required), absorbing freeware & re-releasing as payware, attempting to get legal action started against competing products. Yes, you're evil. If I'm wrong, can you point me to the VDE download site, please?

"To me, it just sounds like a case of sour grapes."
Over what? I don't covet anything you have, so how can this be the case?

"The double standards SHOULD be obvious to any rational person. If it's okay for a skin site to recoup costs, it shoudl be okay for any other contributor to recoup their costs."
Can you please point out to me where I've said that it's -not- ok for pixtudio to sell their work? Every chance I've had, I've applauded them for it, and wished them luck. All I see is you trying to pull wool over people's eyes, attempting to put words in my mouth which I haven't said - in fact, attempting to insinuate that I've said the very opposite of my actual words.

"The logic that it is somehow better to work 8 hours a day making say insurance company databases/spend precious free time making a handful of skins than to dedicate all your time to making skins, software, and sites is beyond me."
Again, those are words I haven't said, I'll thank you to not libel me so. Oki, so it isn't libel, you don't -say- that I said these things - you're just insinuating it.

"Particular coming from a former eFRONT employee who is an admin of a site with a PAY subscription program and ads up the wazoo on it which makes its money off the backs of skin authors."
I was never an efront employee; I was a skinz employee, eventually subcontracted to work on a site owned by efront. Perhaps a small difference, but significant to me. I didn't set efront policy, and fought against it every step I could, while still having a hope that I could keep skinz alive in a reasonable fashion. When that hope ended, I left.
Yes, we hope skinz will make us filthy rich. For the moment, it's making mian & co stinking poor (they haven't asked me to pitch in for bandwidth yet, thank god). They're doing what they can to keep an unbiased site alive & running. According to you, that's no sin - until you got to this paragraph, when it became a sin. Unlike wincusto, we aren't backed by a corporation ($tardock) - that also means we don't have oversight by some corporation. We're free to add all the apps you're unwilling to.

"That doesn't bother me."
Why did you bring it up then? Actually, I believe you on this one - it's in direct contradiction to what you said previously, and I'll assume your first statement on the subject is the one you hold true.

"What does bother me is this lame attitude that skin sites are free to make all the money they can but the other 2 partners in a skin site - the skin authors and the software developers are not entitl

grr, there's a cutoff point for posts, gonna re-type the last bit.

"What does bother me is this lame attitude that skin sites are free to make all the money they can but the other 2 partners in a skin site - the skin authors and the software developers are not entitled to do the same. It's hypocritical beyond belief."
Sure would be if it was true, wouldn't it? Think I've proved it isn't above, but just incase, here's the salient points:
a) yes, we hope skinz will make moolah, bank, beaucoups buckage. I personally want a porsche carrerra turbo. unf.
b) skinz authors making a buck is a grand thing, hyper-cool; I hope they make a mint doing what they enjoy. Hence, the pixtudio skins, complete with ads in the descriptions, are still up at skinz, until you apply some $tardock lovin^H^H^H^H^Hpressure and get 'em to take 'em down. (shog's not cool, don't post your stuff there! or maybe better, get me removed as an admin. then there's no problem *grin*)
c) software devs are welcome to make a buck, too - I personally hope panic of c4 fame makes a good bit, he deserves it. Now, mind you - and this applys to paysuites of skins too - for them to make a buck, what they provide needs to have added value above what you can get for free. If the freeware app's better, I'll use it -hell, if it isn't better, but the share/payware equivalent doesn't have enough added value to warrant the difference in cost, I'll use the freeware. It's common sense.

Clear enough? Now please brad - you claim to be a peaceful person, to be fostering "community" - please do so. The best way for you to do that is to stop picking sophistry based debates in other forums, and to stick to your crowd of "we-love-brad"'s at wincusto...

IE, you're a troll; go away.

whoa.

Shogoot really has the ability to completely puncture an argument. Nice going

and miriku, LSC is down, i need it up ASAP! youre delaying my uberproject here! >:)

AdamTT
ADMIN - Its Miriku's fault, not mine

heh, if yer talking about liquidspin, i noticed that too - never been there to grab music, got curious, couldn't get there =(

i saw a spoofed mac address on my router, knocking one of my computers offline. in light of current events, i believe i am under an attack. i got home a bit late last night, so i gave up and pulled the plug

right now, i just finished ripping everything off the router and i'm rebuilding the network from scratch. incoming port forwarding (ie, servers) will not work for a few more moments

amen shoggot, amen.

liquidspin.com is working. moonfrog-records.com is working. . .

*sigh*

what a week

"It's rare that it goes in the favor of the artist."

Depends on which artist you're talking about, don't you think? My whole objection to the commercialization of skinning is the same as my objection to mtv: unless my tastes are in line with the masses, chances are it will be much more difficult for me to get what I like. Right now, no particular skinner is privileged over another in terms of exposure at sites like customize. A 14 year-old running a swirl filter on a picture of his dog gets his wall up on the front page just like shinter does. A guy who doesn't upload much but puts out really great material gets as much exposure as someone who churns out skins left and right with less quality. I really don't think you can expect this to continue once money is involved.

As for your analogy about car theft, that's inaccurate. My analogy would be, "if you leave your porsche in the middle of a crime-ridden neighborhood (such that you KNOW it's going to get stolen), then don't complain when it's gone the next day." What I'm saying is that if Pixtudio and the like are the first ones to start selling their skins, then they are responsible for how this model turns out affecting the rest of the community. You can't just throw something out into the community and deny responsibility for it when it turns out bad, but claim responsibility for it when it turns out good.

yeah, custo has always been like this. a flood of information, barely ranked, barely sorted. there was always something i loved about it for that.

it's unfortunate that people are deciding that they want more, i really fear the consequences of their actions. but i wish them luck in their decisions, and i wish the scene luck in dealing with it.

the belief that webcomics somehow deserve massive payments is going to destroy webcomics really soon.

It's not about skinners trying to change anything. It's not about wether shareware is evil and freeware is holy. It's more about human values than you realize. None of this deserved to be amplified into a freakin philosophy when the original complaint was about rudeness, pure and simple.

Custo has laid claim to the 'bad boys' turf by saying they will insult, curse at or offend anyone they want. To me this is sad (I know - you don't care and fuck me go away - I got the message) I see it more as beavis&butthead try to run a skin site (that's not a compliment)

I made skins because I absolutely loved doing it. I made them for me to use on my computer. I love the idea that lots of other people used them because of skin sites letting me post them. I made a lot of friends being around these sites and those friendships I cherish. I respect a huge number of the admins, skinners and developers doing things for skinning today. Overall, it's been a real positive part of my life and wonderful addittion to my 'family'.

But, as George Harrison said - "All things must pass".

It's been a gas, I love you all (even beavis) I wish that mattered but I know it doesn't.

If I want to get involved in debating political issues (which I always do) it won't be my skinning friends and family that are the issue. There's far too much going on today that really is an evil. This world of online artwork and desktop customizing is only a comfort zone, it's only an enjoyable place for me. When it becomes ugly I'd rather just take my fond memories and move on (hold your applause Adam).

I'm logging out of here for good - adios, I love you guys and thanks for everything.... :-)

lates.

Webcomics want donations for server costs.
At least I hope so- I don't want to see webcomics go down the tubes...

Ah Shog. Truly sad that now you resort to telling me to "go away". As I've said elsewhere, your kind are exclusionary. A self-appointed "elite". The type of old guard aristrocrat who sees those who disagree with them as "mindless masses". You've all but said as much in your writings here.

Unable to tolerate those with different views, you resort to name calling and demands that they just go away.

Which is kind of ironic as the many of the most active contributors on your own message board are the same "mob" you lambast here (me, jafo, alexandrie, grimspoon, lightstream, etc.). I don't see you asking us to "go away" there.

You don't pull this kind of attitude and promote this kind of behavior on YOUR site but you praise the policies that drive away the most active participants of your own board from this site.

As "evil" as you claim Stardock is, there can be no doubt that unlike you, Stardock has a vested interest in Customize.org being successful. You, on the other hand, have a lot to gain by customize.org losing users. I hope and don't think that you are purposely doing that but your actions and behavior say much. Why haven't you created a post on your site telling me and "the mob" to "go away, troll"? like you did here?

On your site, 3 of the 10 most active threads on Skinz.org were created by "the mob" of people you want to go away from this site. All 3 of those threads are friendly fun threads with no flaming in them. How is that? Seems to me that we're not the ones who are the "Rampaging mob" afterall.

So let's see, # of major skin/theme authors who think miriku/shoggot's view is correct: 0 Number who think it's incorrect: many (to the point that several have removed their skins).

I'm pretty comfortable with what "mob" I'm associated with. Strangely, on your own site, it's that same mob that drives much of the positive message board activity, supplies much of the new skins, and activity. And you don't seem to promote actions that would lead to the loss of those users and skins on your site, only on your competitor's site.

And finally:
The foundation of your argument is on a faulty premise - that Stardock takes freeware and turns it to payware. You have no examples of this and making them up out of thin air just harms your credibility (DesktopX isn't VDE and VDE wasn't freeware anyway).

I don't think anything mroe needs to be said by me on this particular topic. Thinking people can read (and have read based on the numerous emails from people who have universally without exception been disgusted with your behavior, Shog) what we've written and come to their own conclusions.

in translation, you and all your friends are pissy and email each other back and forth saying "isnt he a poopoo head?", "yes, totally, he's a poopoo head"

i dont think the skin sites are in competition. i dont wake up in the morning and think "oooh, what can i do to ruin those wincusto guys" or "yeah, this will really draw traffic away from skinz"

i dont think anyone else does either. this isnt a tiny scene, we all know this. there's plenty of space as the traffic associated with each site shows, and frankly, i think that increasing users on custo would help skinz more then anything since it would be more users entering into this little digital art world.

i really dont see your point starkiddo. it seems to be "the biggest thread on skinz is cause of me and my friends! so there! haha! poopoo head!" and while completely parsed the syntax of it, the semantics evade me. "well, thats great". i think you guys are also responsible for the fastest ever growing thread on custo. i dont think i owe you anything for it, i dont think you owe me anything for it. it simply is.

dont split the scene. we're all humans out there playing with pixels. or we used to be. now there's money on the table and blood in the water

yeesh. You don't give up, do you?

I call you a troll here because here, you are a troll. You haven't pulled this kinda crap at skinz - yet. If / when you do, I'll first politely ask you to shut up - and if you don't, I'll do my damndest to get you banned. If mian disagrees with me, it may be the end of my being an admin there; that's ok.

As for me being a self appointed "elite" - I didn't ask to be "elite". All I did was skin a few things.

These suites (which you'll note I've never expressed any disapproval of, on any level) - know how they started? No? Know who made the first "suite"? I wasn't planning on making one, I just started skinning the few apps that were skinnable (& twas only a few around, back then). Then someone labeled it a "suite". Blam, suddenly I'm a "master skinner". bah.

So then one night, mian's grumbling about having to wade through all of the icq skins to weed out the photoskins. I had time, offered to give a hand. Well, he gave me full admin access, probably because at the time there was only full & nothing. Aside from weeding out the photoskins, I did nothing - then I found some news, he said eh, you post it... so I did. Since I had the time while at work, I posted more news... and soon, toasty & mian started letting me do most of the "public face" of skinz. Why? I was willing to do it. I wasn't especially knowledgeable, I wasn't especially nice, and I was occassionally rude. But I did it, and stuck with it. Self appointed elite? Fuck no - I'm just a shmoe with an opinion, one which you don't like.

I told you to go away because you aren't doing anything constructive here - you're being an ass for being an ass's sake. You seem to enjoy fights, so you keep coming back to fan flames. By any definition, that's being a troll. Trolls are normally asked to leave. So leave, troll.

So what if you're the most active users on the skinz msgbd? It gets what, 2 posts an hour? Generally on "what's your favorite band" (wasn't that one of your topics? How non-skinning related can you get, not to mention inane?) type topics.
And yes, I haven't asked you to leave there - you haven't acted like a fool there, yet (though I suspect in reaction to this, you will - hell, it's a chance to get me out of your hair, or at least out of skinz, right? embrace & extend... how much did you offer for the domain again?)

If I drive away people who contribute the majority of two inane posts per hour from this site, wouldn't this site benefit?

Ah yes - I'm trying to rip apart custo, I do hate miriku & adamtt so. Well, I'm not - but just in case, adamtt, matrix, miriku, if -any- of you feel I'm doing harm posting here, I'll shut up. You can tell me privately in an email, publicly here, whatever. shoggot@bender.thirty4.com . Speaking of which, miriku, if you get a chance, drop by #skinnerz, need to ask you some stuff.

# of major skin/theme authors with the "elite" "sir" or "lady" in front of their name at wincusto who have pulled work from here & agree w/ froggy - all of 'em, I hope. Number of skinners who submit here, but have no elite "sir" or "madam" honorific appointed to them at wincusto who've pulled their work: zero. Why, exactly, should we care about your elite, brad?

re VDE, try google "verona desktop enhancer". You'll get a bunch of hits. Ever single one refers to it as freeware. All of the download links are dead. yes, I've tried every single one. The author stated in an interview that vde was the vore of the first desktopx. You calling your devs liars?

You're right, people can read & find the facts for themselves, brad. Those who aren't in your kiss-ass club, anyway.

Eew.. VDE was shareware, quite soon from the start, but I'm signing up anyway :)

*still stands behind Shoggot* Damn fine points you are presenting and counter-acting against Frog. Very nice and I agree with you 100%.

I also still stand behind Miriku and his decision.

Peace.
.rkenshin.

Pay me $10 for this suite, and I promise it will be full of bugs so you have to keep re-buying it from me over and over again.

oki, been listening to a buncha the music at moonfrog, it's all free for the downloading with no limits, and a lot of it is damn good, particularly "The Grinning Fool" by Blue Methalyne.

Direct ftp access, I just grabbed everything at once.

##shoggot##
~~ Number of skinners who submit here, but have no elite "sir" or "madam" honorific appointed to them at wincusto who've pulled their work: zero. Why, exactly, should we care about your elite, brad?~~

As I said when I posted it in the skins for sale thread..."To me it's the disrespect that bothers me, not the policy of not allowing advertisements. Obviously my presence won't be missed, but you can delete my meager skins here also. Thanks"...my presence obviously wasn't missed as I'm not one of the elite @WC, and asked for my skins to be pulled from this site.

When I speak of disrespect, I don't mean it in the sense that treetog is a god and deserves respect because he makes wonderful skins. I believe that anyone who is submitting skins that they worked hard on to this site should be treated in a professional and tactful manner by representatives of this site. It appears that a good percentage of the users here submit nothing more than screenshots of skins that others have made, therefore they have little respect for the work that goes into actually making something.

I've never been very active here because of that, and the fact that I've seem numerous occasions where the admins behave as children, which in fact that very well may be.

So......call us WC kiddies holier than thou, elitist, brad huggers, prudes...whatever you wish. You've yet to come up with a term that has truly insulted me. However.....I'm sure miriku could probably come up with something truly offensive, as he seems to have a knack for it.

Customize.org is a free website just like DevArt and Deskmod and Skinz .. etc etc.

If they want to charge for their skins ... let them.

However, if they want to post screenshots as ADS ... then I say NO.

They should be paying Custo to post their "Ads" of their "skins for sale" or PAYING Custo to put in a banner rotation.

Personally I don't want to come here to see ads. I already get enough pop ups for that. I don't need stupid ass screenshots saying "Go here and gimme money" for a suite. Aside from the fact I think they are all ugly anyways....but thats just me.

Peace.
.rkenshin.

Shog, try these links:
ftp://ftp.cq.hktk.com/soft/soft_desktool/vde_075.zip
ftp://ftp.cq1.hktk.com/soft/soft_desktool/vde_075.zip
ftp://ftp.sl.hktk.com/soft/soft_desktool/vde_075.zip
ftp://ftp.bj.software.chinese.com/software/soft_desktool/vde
_075.zip

Found them after only a 3 minutes search. :)

Hum, wait, looks like that's just an update or something, not the full app. Some DLLs missing...

Aha! Got it!
http://www.voodoofiles.com/getit.asp?id=300&g=1&d=9&s=138784
149

'tis a dead zip. did you try opening it?

Shoggot, as far as I know, VDE may have started as freeware but soon became shareware.

At the time I *suppose* Alberto was making as little as 2 or 3 registrations per month, and I sincerelly doubt it would ever get much better given the circumstances (which have nothing to do with the quality of the program!).

VDE was the core of DesktopX, but that doesn't mean DesktopX is VDE. In terms of functionality it would be a bit like comparing the latest version of NextSTART 2.x to NextSTART 1.0 (which also happened to be freeware) - no comparison.

It was Stardock's position and marketing power that was primarily responsible for making DesktopX a successful product, in a way that would be very hard - if not downright impossible - for Alberto to do on his own. Having a good product is not enough to become a successful shareware company - it's much more harder than that, as any shareware author can tell you.

The only problem I see with freeware applications is that more often than not the author loses his incentive to keep on improving the product (or gets bored with it). This sometimes means an 'incomplete' application. Look at eFX, for instance. I started using that, but was forced to switch to WindowBlinds when I realized its developement had stopped.

Jorge Coelho
NextSTART 2.80 - A user interface you can actually use!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies
IRC Chat: #winstep on AustNet

all honesty for every dead freeware project, i can name you a dead shareware project. i do not think that that in itself is a determining factor

Fair enough, but *for this purpose* I make no distinction between freeware and shareware that sells perhaps 3-4 registrations per month - and unfortunately the vast majority of shareware authors on the net are in this situation. If a shareware company cannot make enough money to support its owner, then it will remain nothing more than a hobby - something you do on your spare time, much like freeware and therefore subject to the same problems.

It's only when you are able to support yourself and your family with the revenue from your shareware company that things change. Since it is now your only source of income, the very thing that puts a roof over your head, you depend on it and cannot get 'bored' or treat it as an hobby.

Most of the dead shareware projects result from the very simple fact that the product was not making enough money to justify the time and effort put into it.

Jorge Coelho
NextSTART 2.80 - A user interface you can actually use!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies
IRC Chat: #winstep on AustNet

Shog, open the second one I posted. Works. I tried it.

i used to "collect" shell utilities a while back, downloading every release and just holding on to them. low and behold i found a zip with VDE. from the readme.txt:

"December 26, 1999

VDE v.0.46
http://www.vde.pair.com/

-- snip --

Remember that this program in shareware, so if you use VDE, it would
be a nice thing to register, to acknowledge the work done and to promote
the future developement.
The registration costs only 12 $. Check the web site (www.vde.pair.com)
to know more detail about the registration."

VDE 0.46: http://files.deviantart.com/software/VDE_046.ZIP

VDE 0.50 gamma: http://files.deviantart.com/software/VDE_05.ZIP

someone might be interested in them babies.

enjoy!

:: jark ::
:: deviantART dot com loves you ::
::[ oderint dum metuant ]::

heh, frogboy really made a mess for himself.

i have no idea how it popped into your head that shoggot is trying to sabotage custo. And if there someone i find bothering or bad for this site its sure as hell not shog.

AdamTT
ADMIN - Its Miriku's fault, not mine

Adam, I would suggest a basic logic course.

Shoggot's main points have been demonstrated to be false (VDE was shareware).

I have also stated in these threads that I don't think Shoggot is purposely trying to harm Custo.

I am pointing out that the behavior he is encouraging in Admins IS harming Custo. Now, I know some of you admins think that Custo would be just fine as a message board. But here on Earth, most people see Customize.org to be..about..customization. Crazy thought I know. Alienating the people who create your content is not a good policy and it is a policy that wouldn't be put up with on his own site.

If you would take your blinders off for a moment you would see that. Intent is irrelevant. Results are. Of course, I await for Shoggot's retraction of his assertions since it's been shown that Stardock doesn't take freeware and turn them into "payware". Any objective reader of this discusison is going to see the faulty reasoning in Shoggot's posts here. And indeed, many have as can be seen here and elsewhere and pointed out as much.

*takes notes from shoggots excellent debate skills*

i think u have entirely to much time on your hands, first off if we don't let people advertise then we go back to the 50's and start calling people communists and the whole capitalist pig thing comes back. no ads = communist
if people are willing to pay for skinz, they are a morons but its not illegal for someone to try to sell it

ÐûçK so many meanings and so useless. I AM GODS GIFT TO JERGINS HAND LOTION

"I await for Shoggot's retraction of his assertions"

keep waiting. Patience is a good skill to develop...

I'm still very curious that all references to VDE on the net (google "verona desktop enhancer") state that it was freeware, and aside from people posting local copies they've kept, it's not on the net...

The download sites are wrong. On it's homepage, it was always labelled as shareware.

At any rate, I'm happy I frequent both customize and WinCustomize. I get to read both the flame and the mirror-flame where all arguments are reversed.

any reason why you're always so rude frogger? quite unbecoming of someone who is supposed to be a corporation.

stardock will always be hated. get used to it. it's a decision you took, you exchanged respect and credibility for money. it's a fair exchange i think, just not one that i would make.

on the other hand, shog will be respected. you can slather, squirm and throw as much mud as you wish, it wont change it.

now go back to your corporate sponsors and microsoft contracts. leave the art world to the artists.

peace.

I may be wrong about vde, i recognize the possibility - although I'm still puzzled why -every- site referring VDE, named it freeware (at least 20 sites).

Anyway. Time to riposte a tad.

Brad asks what sites like skinz give back - since we're apparently just making beacoup bucks (untrue) or are at least -interested- in making beacoup bucks (true), and not turning any of the money back to the skinners.

Well, aside from the beta program which we're doing which will do just that - let's pretend that program doesn't exist.

We give bandwidth & exposure. We give, frankly, ego. I got a rush when I'd see my work downloaded x number of times, I'd imagine others do too.

And in re: bandwidth: russ may have enough dough to have fun on sweet bikes (wish I did), but I doubt he'd have forked over the cash required to pay for the bandwidth on his aqua series from his own pocket =)

Anyway.

So, there's a new contest. It's sponsored by, hrm, stardock & the skins factory ( a company which makes its living selling wmp7 skins to corporate sponsors) a few others. It's for a band promotion. You send in your skins, you maybe win a prize (someone will, but for any individual, it's a maybe). What's the harm? It's giving something back, right?

Well. Let's look at it... insiduous side first. There's a short list of apps you have to choose from. 8 total. 5 are stardock apps. 1 is wmp7. 1 is winamp (I'm guessing this one was wanted by the band's label or by the band, since it's the standard of mp3 players). And finally, wallpaper.

A while back, I suggested that one of the perils of the commercialization of skinning would be that the list of skinnable apps would shrink as a result - and that as coporate sponsorship of skinners grew, they'd start placing restrictions on what you could & couldn't skin. Well... It's a sponsored competition, they're free to set what apps you can use, right? Yeh, I guess - but I get worried that interest in skinning some cool apps (freeamp? reveal? geoshell?) will fall by the wayside, since the only way to make money is to copy what "the big boys" do, and just do winamp/windowblinds/etc. Hell, why should the next freeamp release even offer skinning? There's no interest in it, right? We used to consider it a victory for skinning when a previously unskinnable app went skinnable... now, it's a rarity indeed.

Now, on the more obvious, and concrete level - you submit your skin, let's say you win. Great, you have a guitar worth ~200$ (hell, let's be kind & say 1000$ - although I can buy a fender strat for 200$. If you think the band's signature is worth 800$, go for it.). They have all rights to your submitted work - you don't. Don't think about submitting a remix of your work to a free site - it's _not_your_work anymore, it's theirs. And if you made a nifty logo as part of your skin, and they use it on album covers from that point on, market it on t-shirts, splash it 100 feet high at concerts - well, enjoy that guitar. Or CD + tshirt, the next prize down. (Oh, you also get a sub to a stardock set of apps on the next level down.).

Let's say you -don't- win. Well, now you -can- post that leet skin wherever you like, right?

Wrong again. It's their's. They can use the loser's work to promote whatever they want, it's their property now.

Ok, enough with the contest. Yes, I know there's news about it at skinz. I didn't approve it. I didn't reject it either, because a) I don't set policy for the site & b) it is news, even if it's not news I like.

Moving on, I'll just steal from rkenshin - aside from being nicked after the highly ubercool himura battoussai, he also has some very valid points.

I know of exactly one place you can advertise for free, legitimately - community bulletin boards. & I'm referring to the brick & mortar kind, online bulletin boards are often moderated against ads (they call it "spam").

You have a product you wish to sell via this site? Buy ad space. Doubleclick.net is probably a likely starting point, though I really couldn't say with any certainty. You want it free & on the web? Advertise on your own website.

Finally, a riposte to those who say I'm part of the , I forget the proper term, "free crowd"? Bullshit. I think selling your artwork is freaking fantastic - and as soon as pixelprintz has something I truly love up, I'll buy it in the biggest size